POLL CONCERNING MIXED EVENTS in the Michigan
Division
(The Question)
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Hello Friends:
Following the Michigan
Division Championships it seems that it would be a healthy thing for us to open
up a discussion of the merits of holding Mixed Events vs.
individual Men's and Women's Events.
The MIDIV has been
following the lead of the USFA in regard to several format issues; i.e.
allowing women to fence men's events at the same tournament providing they
also fence the individual women's events, not fencing off third place.
The reason FOR
allowing fencers to sign up for mixed events and/or multiple
weapons is probably obvious: it insures fencers in all
weapons the maximum amount of competitive fencing and in some cases, insures
that a fencer showing up at an event will be able to fence. (In some
weapons, we have had events where not enough fencers showed up to
form a pool in the individual competition.)
The reasons AGAINST
allowing mixed events and/or multiple weapons include: due to time
constraints it can lead to longer lag times between pools and DEs, double
stripping and, of course, the possibility of the men being afforded less chance
for higher ratings.
(I will concede
that when it comes to ratings the women may get the better half of this mixed
event deal. After all, in reality; Mixed Event simply means that there is
not going to be a Men's Event. On the other hand, if the women weren't
fencing the Mixed Event, the numbers may not be there to qualify the event as a
B, C event.)
So, here's what I
am asking of the fencer community: what are your suggestions on the
issues? Are you in favor of the current set up, would you like to see it
changed and if so how?
I ask that all
Club Owners post this message or ask for feedback from your members. Not
everyone is on [the] mailing list and I would like to hear from as many of you
as possible.
Robbie Schultz
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(The Responses) NOTE: The following have been
corrected for spelling when deemed helpful and have been edited minimally to
remove non-fencing-related material.
The views expressed
are in all cases those of the original author and have not been modified.
Dear Robbie,
First, let me
categorically state that I have no objection to men and women fencing together
in what is termed a 'mixed'' event. I
feel that everyone benefits when more fencers of all ages, sexes and ability
levels fence each other. However, to
allow women to cross over and fence in men's events without giving the same
opportunity to men is, in my opinion, tantamount to gender discrimination.
Does the FIE or
USFA have any clearly stated policies that address this issue? If not, I think it would be well for the
Michigan Division to open this question up to dialogue with the goal of having
a policy of it's own that covers the practice of allowing 'mixed' events.
To this end I would
encourage adopting one or more of the following suggestions:
Other issues that
I've heard expressed that should be addressed/revisited are: concerns about delays and disruption of bout
order that ensue when fencers are fencing multiple events, and the fairness of
women having the opportunity to win twice the number of medals/trophies/ratings
as men (witness the example of two very talented ladies winning 3rd in men's
epee and 2nd in men's foil in the last state championships).
Anyway, I do hope that
you, along with our newly elected board and the membership at large can address
these concerns in a timely manner and come up with some clearly defined
policies/protocols that are fair to all fencers. I look forward to hearing from you.
Sincerely,
Joe Znoy
I'm one hundred
percent in favor of mixed events but I don't think it’s fair to force the women
to fence two events in order to get into the mixed one. I think everyone should be able to just sign
up for an event and fence, there shouldn't be an extra competition to fence
before you are allowed to get in for one gender and not the other, it lowers
women fencer's chances of winning the higher ratings by being more fatigued
than their male counterparts who can come into it fresh and rested.
Mike [Harm]
Hi Robbie,
I'd like to place my vote in favor of Mixed Events. Having experienced both
individual and mixed, I don't think the competitive level is any different, and
holding the events mixed seems to save time and space.
K[evin Bloom]
My only annoyance
with the Men's vs. Mixed is that the mixed are always called mens events when
they aren't, they are mixed. I have no
problems fencing women I think they add to the enjoyment.
My opinion is to
call it what it is. If it is a mixed tournament call it a mixed event, if it
isn't a mixed event then call it a Men's event.
I have no problem
with the women having their own event and sharing ours, I know in the past that
some of the younger boys have fenced in the women’s events.
[Chris Pienta]
I know a few people
who are passionately against mixed events, not because they are sexist, but
merely because they believe women have their competitions and men should have
theirs, and never the twain should meet. However, I respectfully disagree, so count me as being
FOR mixed events.
Yes, this sometimes
results in a delay in what would have been the men's event, due to the women
being tied up in the preceding women's event. However, as someone who is apparently
something of an authority on the subject, having fenced in more tournaments
than any other male this past season, I never found this to be much of an
inconvenience. Also, the same may be said for people (like me) who fence more
than one weapon.
Frankly, when there
have been significant delays, the delay is attributable to some reason other
than it being a mixed event (the Kalamazoo Open and their computer problem
comes to mind). If delay is the issue, then perhaps one "turnabout is fair
play" solution is to have the men's event (which becomes the mixed event)
precede the women's event from time to time.
However, the men then better be prepared for those 9:00 a.m.
registration closings!>
Certainly, the
issue is not one of competitiveness, since there are several women foilists who
regularly defeat all but the elite men (and who give the elite men all they can
handle), and many more who easily hold their own against the men and do no
worse against the elite men than the rest of us. I fence because I enjoy the
competitive challenge, and I think this challenge would be diminished if the
likes of Hermina in epee and any number of women in foil were excluded from
what would have been a mixed event.
Similarly, I think
the competitive challenge for such women would be diminished if they are not
permitted to compete against the men.
Julio [Mazzoli]
OK Here goes.
First of all this
is only MY opinion. I am sure my husband
will have a different point of view. I grew
up in the 70's where equality has been something always strived for. I have never liked gender discrimination of
any like although in some cases I see it's necessity.
Because of this, I
think that all events, should be mixed.
That there shouldn't be a men’s or women’s. The best is the best. And wouldn't that speed up the events!
Barb [Nemecek]
[West Michigan
Fencing Academy]
Robbie,
I see [no] problem
with it, the women this past weekend showed they can more than fence with the guys.
Nathan [Bass]
[Three Rivers
Fencing Club]
Robbie:
Wowsers. You really want to open up a can of worms,
don't you, heh.
I'm a little out of
touch with USFA changes over the past couple of years, but I don't think they
have any hard line stand on this issue that has actually gone into the rules
and regs?
I assume therefore
that this line of thought is primarily intended for formatting MichDiv hosted
events with a 'here's what the feedback was' nod to club hosted events, who
will host their events under USFA guidelines and the club's decision.
My position as a
fencer is to allow as many as possible to fence in my events (more fencing for
me, don't care about the ratings) and to be able to fence as many events as I
can. I rely on the host to have decided
beforehand what to expect and to arrange the event times to accommodate their
expectation.
I have no qualms
about fencing mixed, and if a female takes me down then that's as far as I was
going in that tourney event anyway and couldn't possibly believe I had lost an
opportunity by having to fence a mixed event.
My position as a
host is that if advertised with separate events, I will make every effort to
keep the events separate, even if the majority of the women want to fence
mixed. I strongly believe that is only
fair to the expectations of the complete compliment of women that show up for
the event, and I won't allow a woman to fence mixed but not separate. If women want to fence mixed as well, that's
fine, as long as they fill their obligation to 'their' event and peers.
This isn't always
easy to schedule or easy to decide amidst pressures at the tournament, another
reason (timing is main reason) that the Duelist Open will likely be advertised
in the future as a mixed tournament.
As host and fencer,
my feelings on both double-stripping and mixed (simultaneously) [sic] events is
that it is the fencer's responsibility to make their strip call. DE's can be shuffled a little with no ill
effects on anyone. Bout order in the
pools can be shuffled a little as well, but I'm not so much in favor of that as
some fencers that don't fence back-to-back bouts well (fatigue, recovery from
brain grenade or frustrating bout, coach feedback, inability to check weapon
before next bout, what have you) would have their seeding potentially
handicapped.
Under no
circumstance should a DE in event A [not] be held because a fencer has just
stepped off the strip in event B and wants their ten minutes. It's the fencer's responsibility to decide
which bout they're going to start collecting red cards in for not showing up,
rather than the director's or host's responsibility to arrange bouts around
them.
Lastly, from the
event information/advertising standpoint, why not have the format options
decided prior to posting? Seems like a
valid point to discuss during the scheduling meeting as well, so that the chair
can help balance event types as well as event levels over the seasonal
timeline. Just have the host decide up front if it will be mixed, separate with
option, separate with minimum pool size, or strictly separate. Fencers deciding on what events or tourneys
to fence will have a better idea what to expect from the tournament. Downside is that some of the higher rated
women may not attend a restricted event.
Terry W. Krueger
Ann Arbor Dueling
Society
I've never really
had a problem with it, myself. It's certainly helpful when a tournament isn't
otherwise large enough to field a full men's and/or women's field. We typically
suffer the latter in the U of P. <G>
-Bill [Bussone]
[Michigan Tech]
I don't think we
need to change anything.
--
Daniel J. Luke
I've always favored
the format that the women's event be held separately if there are 8 or more
women. In that case the women were not allowed to fence the Men's/mixed events
at our meets. It actually ended up with us drawing more women as many of them
did not want to fence the men. Another option would be mixing a women's/youth
event since youths now earn ratings at the events and there are fewer
opportunities for them to fence without having to fence the open men.
Mixing the women
and allowing them to fence at open events slows the fencing for the men unless
the women's event is scheduled earlier in the day.
In any case the
women should pay for both events. Scheduling the women's event at 9am and the
mixed event at noon helps avoid the conflict of double stripping. Often waiting
for the women to finish a pool or DE means the male competitors have to wait or
fence bouts back to back and that is unfair.
Scheduling only
mixed events will result in many of the women being upset as a lot of the
beginners don't like to fence the men. Another format would be to hold all D
and E and unders as mixed and all open events as separate men's and women's
events. The open events could be held mixed if you don't field at least 8
ladies. An 8 man pool and DE's gives the women plenty of fencing without
mixing. The better women can travel to larger events if they need to.
As a rule the E and
under ladies are not competitive in the men's open events and are just there to
get the numbers up. I know that comment will generate some hostility from the
women. But, remember, I was a B women's epeeist and was competitive nationally
(12th at the 1984 WE nationals) and there is no way that I can consider myself
equal with Znoy or Herbert or those types of
fencers even when I was in my prime.
We need to remember
that the lower level men do not get to fence the "easier" women's
event so it is unfair for the men to have to continually wait for the women to
finish an event in order to complete the "mixed event". What we need
to focus on is generating more interest and attendance in women's fencing.
We used to fill all
of our events and drew a lot of out of state women when we held the meets at
GLSC. We did that by guaranteeing them an 8 person event or telling them they
would fence a mixed event if there were not 8 women.
Kim Rahl
GLSC
Dear Robbie,
While many of my
statements will probably be restatements of your letter, I would like to send
you my opinion.
I am grateful for
the opportunity to fence in mixed tournaments because it is likely I would not
be fencing competitively otherwise. I do however, feel that it is unfair that I
should be able to enter in both Mixed and Women's Epee events. Men do not have
the opportunity to fence in two epee events. Due to the current listing of
event times it would also be unfair to cancel women's events in favor of mixed.
Should only Epee be
listed at a specific time, and if enough women show up for a women's event to
occur, I believe all fencers should vote if the tournament is mixed or separated.
It would be unfair just to ask the women fencer's what they wanted. I know that
some of the women prefer to fence just women's and not women's and mixed. I, on
the other hand, am glad to fence whenever I can.
Double striping is
the responsibility of the fencer. I will admit that I do not like having to run
around all over the place to finish my pools. (And that, at last tournament I
attended in Schoolcraft I would have told you a couple of times pushing myself
to almost passing out is NOT fun.) In the end they have turned out to be
enjoyable, adrenaline rushing days. I am also aware that this makes other
people wait, and while I have waited up to 2-1/2 hours for an event to start,
my only complaint is keeping myself warmed up. If things are pushed back due to
someone else's success, I have no qualms with that.
(I will admit that
once I get a job this summer and my Saturdays become more filled in college, my
feelings on this will most likely change. I don't know if Virginia has
responded but she often has plans on Saturday nights and wants things to move
along in a more timely fashion.)
I would not be
rated if I had only fenced in Mixed events. But the Mixed events do offer a
higher standard rating. My E was not gift-wrapped for me, Christen and I fenced
hard to see who would win. Julio's rating was much more difficult to achieve
because of the number of fencers at mixed events and their skill levels.
While it would be
interesting to fence off for third, it makes me wonder if I would even have any
third place medals.
Things are working
out well for me now, but as you said I may be at the unfair advantage.
Considering the men epeeist’s in Michigan, I doubt that any of them mind me
fencing in the Mixed events and I have never felt like I have been unwelcome or
made things less enjoyable for them.
However, I was
talking about this very point Friday night, and according to one of my guy
friends, he does not believe changing the system will help. He insists that
most men do not like being beat by a woman and therefore cannot “save
face". He claims I have a higher opinion of the average male than I should
and that later, once the next generation of fencers come around, the men will
vote no to fencing with women. He says, "Sometimes you try to make things
‘fair’ but the reality is that those rules will be eventually used to make
things patently unfair."
Just another view
on things,
Melissa [Clark]
hi robbie ive been
thinking about the question and the only disadvantage I can see is the delay
times as an old guy the normal delays between bouts are sometimes too
long as my muscles tighten up have you thought of only running mixed
events when a lack of fencers would make it easier im not against
fencing the mixed events I actually enjoy them but the longer delays and double
stripping concerns me thanks for the chance to voice my opinion
dennis murphy
liberty lakes fencing club
Robbie,
I see both the
advantages and disadvantages of hosting segregated and mixed events. You stated both side[s] of the coin very
well.
At many
tournaments, they do not allow the women to enter the men's (thus creating a
mixed) unless everyone agrees. The
fencers are gathered around the registration table, the men are asked if they
want women to be allowed to enter.
Many times it is
based on the effect the women will have on the event, if a higher rating
bracket is the outcome, the men must then think about the fact that the women
have to finish in the top 8 and how many men will loose [sic] a new rating to a
women who most likely won't improve her rating.
I have never seen women refused if it will increase the rating scale. I have seen women refused if it has no impact
on ratings whatsoever.
The out of state
tournaments I have been to that do allow mixed events, do not give women the
lag time Michigan clubs tend to. What
they do, however, is put her women's pool and her mixed pool on strips that are
next to each other. This allows double
striping much easier.
Also all of the
fencers are advised that if they miss their third call on one of their bouts
for any reason other than they are currently fencing, they automatically loose
that bout (0 - 5). Enforcing what ever
rules the clubs have in place ensure the events run smoothly and quickly.
Events generally
start within 10 or 15 minutes after close of registration. Strips and rules are not announced until ALL
fencers are gathered around so they can hear announcements. All fencers are required to have their
equipment at the strips so double stripping runs smoother. There is no reason why a fencer can not fence
two or three pool bouts back to back, after all, DE's are three bouts in a row.
Another thought to
ponder - as if you have nothing better to do- is the fact that some clubs
allowing women to enter the men's then allow the men to enter the women's
events, and some events have a men's, women's and mixed event. This way men who don't want to fence against
women have their own event too. After
all, if we are trying to be fair, why should it only be the women who have a
segregated event.
There is no one
simple easy answer to this question.
Maybe you base women participating in the men's event on their rating. If it is an A event, the women have to have a
B; if it is a B event the women have to
have a C and no women in an event lower than a mixed B event. Then you could say any man E and under can
enter any women's event.
Your point on
weapons without enough entries to host two separate events is valid. Most out of state events show registration
times for men's and women's and if either one does not have enough to host a
valid tournament, then they are automatically combined.
I don't know if I
like the tournament by tournament basis of voting or if I prefer the rating
level. I also like the two separate events and the one mixed event. The biggest issue is having the registration
close and the tournament start with 15 minutes of that time, enforce the rules
of extra equipment being required at the strip and possible have a few floor
monitors to keep directors moving along, get equipment to fencers who are
having problems and just make sure there are no long stalls may also help. If a
fencer is having body cord trouble before the bout starts, get two other people
up there to fence while they change their equipment.
Once the pools are
complete, there should only be a 15 minute break before DE's start. It is reducing the lag time when the direct
has a whole group of DE's and all of the fencers at the strip at the same
time. Keeping an eye on the timers and
the time limits everyone is required to follow would also help. Improving on the little things and double
striping if you are running two separate events and one mixed event should
allow for a foil event to be completed by 1pm if it started at 9:00 (close of
registration at 8:30 and not expecting 30 people in each event). Obviously all of this is based on having
directors for every strip.
I am sure you were
looking for a more simple response but I don't really think there is one. However, asking for the opinions of all of
the fencers is a good way to see what everyone thinks
Have a great day
Virginia
[Stirnweis]
Any wuss out there
who don't like the mix events can hold their own tournaments and not mix
them. Holding mix events helps the
collective of fencers to get better. Any
one who can't see that should take their fragile egos and play golf. I feel that pleasing the few endangers the
many.
~m [Michael Cho]
Robbie....
Thanks for the
electromundo mail about the mixed vs. single gender events.
I think the more
fencing you can get for your buck, the better. We all gain from more competition
and experience. The DE system is so limiting, if a poor fencer fences a pool of
5, then is out in one DE, there is serious frustration in the little experience
for the trouble of coming. Can you
imagine driving to Midland, fencing five bouts and coming back?? Quick, give me
a rope and a tree.
If it counts, I'm a
vote for keeping it.
All my best,
Zdzislaw [Sikora]
I like the current
format.
I enjoy the
opportunity to fence both men and women.
I find that the different styles offer more chances to experiment with
different techniques.
I also enjoy
fencing more than one weapon on occasion.
So I would prefer
to stay with our current format.
Very truly yours,
Frank MacKenzie
I think as long as the
event is published as mixed, it is fine.
Also, we can have a few non-mixed events to satisfy everyone's
needs. See what the attendance is at the
separated events, and use this as a measure to see if the separate events
should continue. Since events are
planned 1/2 year at a time, it is easy to adjust the second half of next year
accordingly.
Beth Vance
If a tourney is
going to be mixed, then it should be labeled as such, I have followed this
convention with the upcoming UFO tourney.
It would be more fair for the guys if there were a few tourneys where
there was a men's, women's and mixed event to allow equal fencing for all,
though these would likely need to be limited as to [one] weapon to actually
finish in 1 day.
There are a few tourneys
that should not be mixed, the division championships are one, while I
understand there are women that would like to get in more fencing, these are
the championships for these weapons and should be treated as separate events. The division championships are held to fence
off for the highest honor in each weapon in each gender. That being said, for this to be a meaningful
tourney, then there should be more of a commitment from each club to insure
their best is present to fence in all weapons.
[Amy S. Webster]
Hi Robbie,
My feeling on the
mixed events is ...well...mixed. On the one hand it is definitely necessary for
the women fencers especially the more advanced ones. Until we have a larger
number of women fencers they just don't have the local competition that is
necessary for them to improve. On the other hand I have noticed that some of
the top women fencers are not going to the smaller competitions and I think
that it is their responsibility to the fencing community to attend competitions
for those less talented than they are. Perhaps that they need to be reminded
that concessions are being made for them (i.e. mixed events) and they should
reciprocate to those less talented than them by attending more of the smaller
tournaments .
On the other side
of the coin, I don't think that the major tournaments such as the State
Championship or sectional should have a mixed event, unless you do a women's, a
men's and a mixed, and I don't think anyone wants to do that. The men should
have the opportunity to have a Men's champion just as the women do, and
although it has not happened it is conceivable that a woman could win both the
mixed and the women's. I don't think it would hurt the women to have one or two
tournaments a year that do not have a mixed event.
One other thought -
although I know that ratings are important to the sport, I don't think that
they should be a factor in this decision. It is a fine line of distinction but
it is my philosophy that if you concentrate on your fencing the rating will
come. The chasing of ratings takes away from the sportsmanship of fencing and
results in people not giving back to the sport as they should, as happens when
a fencer doesn't go to a tournament because they know they cannot improve on
their rating.
To summarize my
thoughts, I think that women should be allowed to fence in the Men's events as
long as they have fenced the Women's in that same tournament, but the State
championship and the Sectional championship should be exclusive, a Men's event
and a Women's event. There should also be a strong reminder sent out to the
fencers that they need to help along their fellow fencers by participating in
as many qualifying tournaments as they can.
We had a family
discussion and this is the Williams family consensus, so you can count this as
four votes!!
Thank you for
addressing this issue Robbie. It has been the topic of debate in our family on
more than one occasion.
Fiona [Williams]
Robbie,
I think rather then a woman's and an open perhaps it would be better to have a
lower ranking and an open event...thus making it easier of some of the less
experienced fencers to compete in the higher ranked events. This way they would
still be able to fence for ranking in the open events and yet be able to get
more fencing experience in the lower ranking events.
Tom [Evangelisti]
I have no problems
with mixed events, and this includes championship events. I’m even keeping in mind that Ann Marsh will
be moving to MI later this year.
~Justin H. Purcell
I like it the way
it is.
[Unknown]
After talking with
some of my fencers especially the women I even learned a few things. The
biggest thing is that even the women have different opinions on the subject.
The best suggestions/formats we have are very simple ones and may have already
been tried or suggested.
All 3 of these
suggestions could be implemented together and make life much easier in MI
division for fencers and event planners.
Arik Riehl
Bronco Fencing
Robbie,
I can see why the
men may not want to fence mixed all the time, sometimes getting beaten by
"girls", but women, esp. rated women, do improve the chance for
higher rated tourneys, and usually the men benefit from this.
I suggest most
tourneys still be fenced mixed, but designate a couple gender separated
tourneys, besides Qualifiers, and let people know in advance so they can make
their competitive decisions fully informed. Some women won't come out if it's
only a women's tourney -- it's not often we pull more than an E event unless we
go outstate or to the Excalibur (thanks WMFA!).
Personally I have
more fun in the mixed events -- less pressure to win (or even place), and I
love fencing the guys 'cuz they fence differently than the women -- usually
more energetic as well as the height thing (all those tall guys!) -- I enjoy
working on how to get that touch, even when I know the final outcome will often
be my defeat-- this is when I best play that "one touch at a time"
game, which is the real game.
Tina K. O'Brien
UFO fencer
hi,
though my name might appear on a petition indicating otherwise, my opinion is
that allowing mixed events (the current format) is both a great benefit, and a
necessity to the sport of fencing in Michigan.
It is not so
important in foil, where both mens and womens usually can accumulate the 15
fencers for a decent event. However, it
is for the sake of competition in epee and sabre that this is necessary.
Mens and womens
sabre and epee seldom garner 15 fencers, especially womens in the two, and in
order to have rated events, mixing is necessary.
In addition, it is
a great benefit for both men and women to fence each other. To say that one sex does not deserve to, or
should not for moral reasons, or anything else fence the other is
ridiculous. Basically, I appreciate all
the competition i can get, and i dont care if beat or lose to a man or a woman.
The sport of
fencing in the Michigan Division needs the mixed competitions and it would be
very sad for the fencers, and for the sport, if this were disallowed. Sorry to rant, that is just what i believe.
-Eric Romein
Hi Robbie,
I was just reading some
opinions of our Michigan fencers about mixed event versus separated events and
I've seen my name there a few times so I think I should put down what I think.
In foil it will be no
problem to have the events separatly cause usualy their events have a good
tournout,but in epee (I don't know what is going on in sabre) if they are gonna
be separatly I am gonna sign up for men only ,cause for me ( no offense to any
woman) I will never get a rating in Michigan in the women's events,I have a C
already and there is no way we could gather more than 10 women at the most and
how many of them have ratings?So if we're gonna have women saparated from men
and no chance to mix them I'm just gonna leave the division and fence in
another state.Or If I'm alowed I would just fence the men events and not enter
the women if the men are ok with it so then nobody will say that I'm going home
with more than one medal in one weapon and the men don't have that chance.And I
it would be fair for women too and no offense but I think in Michigan my place
is in the men's epee.
But what about fencing more
than one weapon at one tournament?I just started fencing foil and I like
it and usualy the women's foil and men's epee are at the same time .Why should
it a problem to change the order of the bouts?I don't mind doing the iron
woman.
It's not fair for the whole
pool to wait for one fencer to come off the strip in one tournament to fence
his bout in a different one.So I think who ever fences more than one
event should do the iron man (woman) at the begining or at the end of the
pool.If they can fence two or more tournaments that means 5 or 6 bouts in
a row should be no problem.
I guess that's all I have
to say.
Hermina Panduru